Ep144 - Khara Croswaite Brindle: Ruptured Relationships: How to Heal and Understand Mother-Daughter Estrangement

HIListically Speaking with Hilary Russo

When the bond between a mother and daughter fractures, the emotional fallout can resonate through every aspect of life. Hilary Russo guides this raw and enlightening conversation with celebrated family therapist Khara Croswaite Brindle, author of "Understanding Ruptured Mother-Daughter Relationships,” and peels back the layers of this deeply personal issue. ⁣

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During this intimate conversation, Hilary and Khara unravel the tangled reasons behind daughters distancing themselves from their mothers, from toxic dynamics to ancestral traumas. Addressing the societal stigmas that often accompany the decision to step back, we shed light on the importance of setting boundaries for emotional health, and how the decision to create distance is rarely taken lightly, but often a necessary step in preserving one's well-being.⁣

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Touched, moved, or inspired by this conversation? Consider sharing it with someone you know and leave a rating/review wherever you are tuning in. ⁣

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Connect with Khara and grab a copy of her books:⁣

https://www.estrangementenergycycle.com/⁣

https://www.facebook.com/croswaitecounselingpllc⁣

https://www.linkedin.com/in/kharacroswaite/⁣

https://www.instagram.com/kharacroswaite/⁣

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Connect with Hilary:⁣

https://www.instagram.com/hilaryrusso⁣

⁣https://www.youtube.com/hilaryrusso⁣

https://www.facebook.com/hilisticallyspeaking⁣

https://twitter.com/HilaryRusso⁣

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https://www.hilaryrusso.com/podcast⁣

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⁣Music by Lipbone Redding https://lipbone.com/⁣

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--------- EPISODE CHAPTERS WITH SHORT KEY POINTS ---------⁣

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(0:00:00) - The Rise of Mother-Daughter Estrangement⁣

Therapy, abuse, trauma, and generational trauma influence the rising trend of estrangement in mother-daughter relationships.⁣

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(0:04:32) - Understanding and Navigating Family Estrangement⁣

Family estrangement's multigenerational impact, forms of distance, setting boundaries, therapy for affected family members, maintaining emotional well-being.⁣

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(0:13:54) - Understanding the Estrangement Energy Cycle⁣

The emotional journey of adult daughters dealing with ruptured mother-daughter relationships and how educators can support children experiencing family estrangement.⁣

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(0:22:16) - Healing Estranged Mother-Daughter Relationships⁣

Nature's complexities of mother-daughter estrangement, generational trauma, and attachment styles, and the value of therapy and coaching for healing.⁣

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(0:28:09) - Understanding Mother-Daughter Estrangement and Healing⁣

Healing and reconciliation between estranged mothers and daughters, with emphasis on individual journeys and the importance of mutual effort.⁣

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(0:36:16) - Understanding and Healing Mother-Daughter Estrangement⁣

Healing estranged mother-daughter relationships, prioritizing mental health, and using self-regulation tools like Havening for self-empowerment.⁣

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--------- EPISODE TRANSCRIPT ---------⁣

⁣0:00:00 - Khara Croswaite Brindle⁣

I think a lot of people are now talking about it. I think it's always been happening, but maybe we're seeing an uptick because people have are going to therapy, they have language for it. Now they're looking at this from the lens of abuse and trauma and that's justifying some of the rupture, the distance between parents and their children. ⁣

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0:00:18 - Hilary Russo⁣

One in 12. One in 12 people my friends are estranged from a family member and it's a choice that can be very challenging for many. But when you do the inner work, when you create the space for healthier relationships and for a better understanding of self, it really can pave the way for a new you. And when it comes to mother and daughter estrangement especially where there's been possibly repeated trauma, discomfort, pain, misunderstanding even a daughter's choice to cut her ties from her mother can come with so much emotion and still much pain in the healing process. ⁣

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Khara Crosswaight Brindle is a licensed therapist who wrote the book about this very thing understanding ruptured mother-daughter relationships, guiding the adult daughter's healing journey through the estrangement energy cycle. And I have to say, Khara, this is such an important topic because of the clients that I see. There's so much parental child estrangement that I've been seeing more so than probably years ago. I feel like people are coming into their own and I'm really happy you're here to talk about this topic because it is a important one and I know you specifically focus on the mother-daughter in this book specifically, but this is happening with many relationships. So thank you for being here, thank you for sharing your voice and your wisdom, thank you, Hilary. ⁣

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0:01:48 - Khara Croswaite Brindle⁣

Yeah, I'm excited to talk about it. It's on the rise, so let's talk about it. ⁣

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0:01:53 - Hilary Russo⁣

So let us talk about that when we say it's on the rise and we hear numbers like one in 12, one in 12 seems like a pretty big number when you think about in the grand scheme of things, that that could potentially be a real issue. I don't know. When I growing up, you just respected your parents. You took whatever came at you. In a way, you didn't talk back, and I think we're seeing more people now using words like narcissism, parental narcissism it's not just within intimate relationship and gaslighting and manipulation and I'm curious, these terms tend to be buzzwords now too, right? So how do we define the difference between that and really know that? What's my responsibility in all this, and am I in a position where I'm in a toxic relationship that does need severed ties? ⁣

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0:02:52 - Khara Croswaite Brindle⁣

Yeah, I mean I think this is one of the chapters of the book we go through a bunch of assumptions of estrangement and one of them is that therapists are pushing for clients to stop talking to their parents, especially because we have a generation, or now two generations, that are coming into therapy doing their own work and now have a language for what happened right of trauma, abuse, neglect, something happening in that family relationship that led to that rupture. ⁣

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And although it's assumptions because you and I as mental health professionals can say like we're not here to champion estrangement, like we're here to say what's best for the client and like helping them discover for themselves what's best I tackled that assumption as well as like this toxic word and it's funny you named it, you said the word toxic, so I think people are overusing that word, but when it comes to estrangement, maybe it's just now a simple, a simplification for what's happened, like I don't want to go into detail about how painful this estrangement was for my parent, but if I say the word toxic, people will respect that and just look it up from like boundaries, and so I think a lot of people are now talking about it. I think it's always been happening, but maybe we're seeing an uptick because people have are going to therapy, they have language for it. Now they're looking at this from the lens of abuse and trauma and that's justifying some of the rupture, the distance between parents and their children. ⁣

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0:04:09 - Hilary Russo⁣

And there's some other words that we hear a lot as of late, and it's ancestral trauma, generational trauma and going back to the root of your ancestry, and how do you avoid bringing that into this present generation and generations going forward? I've been hearing that a lot and that's something I think I've even battled. I'm like I don't want to bring that into the next generation. ⁣

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0:04:35 - Khara Croswaite Brindle⁣

How do? ⁣

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0:04:35 - Hilary Russo⁣

I stop the trauma right here. ⁣

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0:04:38 - Khara Croswaite Brindle⁣

Absolutely. I'm like, yeah, so in my personal experience, I'm married into a family that has four generations of estrangement and what I noticed because I'm a mental health professional I can see it. I'm not in it. I'm kind of behind it looking at what's going on and it's like now it's been modeled. Now it's modeled that if I have a significant conflict with you I can just cut ties. That's what's been said, is fine, is acceptable in this family, even though there's lots of hardship and lots of grief and loss behind the scenes. ⁣

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They're modeling for the youngest generation, which I'm now a parent of a two-year-old. So I'm very thoughtful to this. I'm like what are we telling that youngest generation about? If it's a conflict that doesn't feel solvable, resolvable, do we just walk away? Do we just say I'm done talking to you, stay out of my life, and so it's not that simple. But I think a lot of people on the outside are just seeing estrangement as this dynamic of I'm mad at you, so I'm not going to talk to you, when this look goes so much deeper as to what's truly going on, from that cellular trauma level to generations, to modeling, to here's neglect and abuse that was happening for that person. ⁣

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0:05:41 - Hilary Russo⁣

Yeah, and the other thing about that is that there's the fine line where, as mental health professionals, our dedication and our loyalty is really to the client or the patient right, but not to tell them what to do, but help them find what works best for them right. It's never telling them, it's never healing them. It's giving them the tools to come to those decisions themselves right. ⁣

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Exactly. But the part of that is some people don't want that person in other lives, and I've seen that a lot. It's like finding that healthy boundary with that person, whereas is there a level of estrangement where it's not they're totally out of your life, but you have healthy boundaries so that they're still in your life. You love this person. It's obviously a tie, but how do you do so in a way that, where it's not impacting your emotional well-being and you can still have someone of a healthy relationship, even at a distance? ⁣

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0:06:40 - Khara Croswaite Brindle⁣

Yeah, and so you're kind of speaking to. We talk about in the book. We talk about physical estrangement versus emotional estrangement. So physical estrangement is what people's heads go to, their minds go to we're not speaking, I've moved away, you don't know anything about my life, we're never seeing each other at holidays or never at family gatherings. It's kind of like a hard stop, like very dramatic sense of there's grief and loss. This feels like a death when we stop talking to that person. Then there's this emotional estrangement, which is that slow burn of like I'm going to start kind of distancing myself, like when I restrict how long I'm talking to you on the phone, how often I call you, how long I stay at that family event. So it creates some of those boundaries you're naming Hillary with. Like I want some distance, but I'm still connected to them, I'm still talking to them. I'm just creating some boundaries around what that looks like. ⁣

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0:07:28 - Hilary Russo⁣

And then you have the other side of it, like other family members who witness that, and I've been in a position where I've had family members who have been estranged or still are, and you so want everybody to get along, you so want to step in and be like, oh gosh, what can I do to help? Even though it's not your place, how do you deal with being the family member who's on the outside looking in and they're the one that wants the piece within everyone? Because I'm sure someone can benefit from this book and pick it up and read it, because maybe there is an estrangement between family members that they love both both of those people. ⁣

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0:08:07 - Khara Croswaite Brindle⁣

Oh, yeah, yeah. And so we have a section in the book that talks about this ripple effect on families and specifically for siblings. This was inspired by my spouse, who's talking to all four of those generations and the family, but none of them are talking, so he's very much the person saying what you've just said. I want everyone to get along, I want to see all of you, I want us in a room together. I miss us as a family, right? So that's very heartfelt For those siblings or loved ones. ⁣

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Some of the strategies are know that this is your agenda, this is your desire, this is your wish, your want of the family. Do you go to your own therapy to process the sadness that you have that your family has been fractured in this way? Is it about not taking sides, not bad mouthing one loved one to the other as you're like oh, I'm siding with mom or I'm siding with sister and this mother daughter example of estrangement. But some other tips of like, it's not up to you to fix it, it's not up for you to convince them to reconcile. Actually, it'll backfire if you do. ⁣

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If you're like just get along, just talk to each other. That creates more damage. But, more importantly, there's this alliance that we have to have, or we feel like we have to have, and I have to choose mom or sister. I cannot be connected to both. And that is where I think doing their own individual therapy is important, because they're feeling caught between and they love both people and they want both people in their lives, but they feel like they can't speak about that person. I can't mention mom to sister and I can't mention sister to mom, and it's just a huge mental energy for them to navigate estrangement this way. ⁣

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0:09:36 - Hilary Russo⁣

Yeah, and it can cause a lot of draining of that energy too. You know you don't want to be put in the middle. You have your own relationship that you need to nurture. You might have your own emotional boundaries or healthy boundaries that you need to set with that person as well, or maybe it's even more than one person, because even like you mentioned your husband having an estrangement from a number of people or has a family that has multiple levels of estrangement. You know being able to support yourself is the most important thing. But you know you also mentioned that there is the trickle down and the ripple effect, especially when it comes to children. Like how do you explain that to a child? Like where's grandma, where's grandpa? Why don't we see them? But we see the other grandparents all the time. We're seeing more of that too. ⁣

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0:10:21 - Khara Croswaite Brindle⁣

Oh yeah, and children are curious Like that's naturally, developmentally appropriate of like where's my grandparent? Here's a social representation of families. My family doesn't look like this. Why is that? So I took this first book that we're talking about and I actually made a children's book in the last two weeks. I actually launched last week. Oh, that's great. ⁣

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0:10:41 - Hilary Russo⁣

Can we get the name of that? ⁣

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0:10:42 - Khara Croswaite Brindle⁣

Yeah, it's called Petty Mickey's Family Tree, talking to kids about a strange one. ⁣

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And so it's a cute little elementary age child book. That's the audience, it's elementary age children and their parents, and it looks at her coming home saying, hey, I have this assignment, this family tree I'm supposed to put together. I'm having some anxiety, I'm having some worry that my tree looks different than the other kids at school and it really just creates modeling of what it looks like for a family member this case of parent to talk to their child and say, like, what's age appropriate? How do I regulate myself to tell my kid just enough information for them to understand what's going on, without parentifying them, without stressing them out? ⁣

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So I actually have like five tips in the back of that book for parents of like I want you to breathe, I want you to be curious about what the question they have. You know, these young children of like four or five year olds are like hey, do they look like me? That might be their only question, versus a word panicking that I have to explain. Hey, this is what my parent did for me to not talk to them. So just talking about what's developmentally appropriate and discussing this arrangement because kids do have questions and this book, hopefully, is going to help that conversation. ⁣

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0:11:50 - Hilary Russo⁣

I love that you mentioned that. I love that you're bringing up like social, emotional learning tools that children can implement. And that's something that I've been trying to work with the kids, more especially with the havening techniques, which gives them a way to self-regulate for self-love, self-care and just find that calm and the chaos you know when the brain is just not really understanding what's going on, especially at that younger age. Right, but giving them ways to self-regulate and you mentioned that words regulate what other things can they do? You mentioned breathing. ⁣

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0:12:25 - Khara Croswaite Brindle⁣

Yeah, I think even just like talking about this ahead of time. So like when parents pick up this book or hear this podcast, can they be like? What would I say if my kid asked why I don't talk to grandma or to uncle or to whoever it is in the family? So just that like preparation of here's what I would say, so it doesn't feel like it's coming from emotion, it's coming from like this grounded. I know what I want to say to my kid and I'm not going to show them that this hurts. I'm going to be regulated so I don't look sad or angry or upset, because kids can feel that right, so we can feel our own stuff, show up and so if we can take a book or think about this ahead of time, then we can feel more prepared to show up neutrally with our kids and then be really like slow and saying what do you really want to know? ⁣

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You know elementary age kids might have one simple question, versus a teenager might be like tell me more, like I want to know what really happened with grandma. So some of those tips are about just like being present for the question. Regulate yourself to breathe, grounding, giving them eye contact, validating their emotions, which is important for kids of like you might feel confused by what I just shared. What other questions do you have? That's another tip of encouraging future questions. They might just be like this was enough for now, but I might have a question for you as my parent six months from now about grandma. So it's not usually a one and done conversation and their parents can look at this. These characters go through this little plot line of the children's book or just look at the back of the book for those five tips. I'm hoping they'll feel more prepared. ⁣

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0:13:54 - Hilary Russo⁣

And this can also be for teachers as well, because something that I was talking with a mutual trauma informed practitioner and also an educator who works with kids about the castle system, and then you know what? What can we do to understand a child's body language and their behavior? That might be changing the in the in the classroom. Educators, teachers, also need to be familiar with this. So I'm sure this book, the child book especially, can be very helpful for teachers as well to understand what's going on at home with with the little ones you know. ⁣

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0:14:29 - Khara Croswaite Brindle⁣

Absolutely, and obviously the child therapists are just like eating it up. They want this in our library of, like, let's do some bibliotherapy, let's talk about this. Is this, is this your family? Like talking to me about your family tree? So I just I'm really hopeful that it's going to fill this gap, because I didn't see any literature out there for kids, and parents are desperate to say how do I not harm them further? How do I not put my stuff on them? How do I keep myself in check while answering their question, and I think this book is a part of that. ⁣

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0:14:56 - Hilary Russo⁣

So let's mention the two books that you have that we're talking about. The first one is Understanding Ruptured Mother-Daughter Relationships Guiding the Adult Daughter's Healing Journey through the Estrangement Energy Cycle. I want to talk about that real quick. And then the other book mentioned the title again so we can let folks know. ⁣

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0:15:12 - Khara Croswaite Brindle⁣

Yeah, it's called Petty McGee's Family Tree. Talking to Kids about Family Estrangement. ⁣

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0:15:17 - Hilary Russo⁣

Wonderful. We're going to put links to both of those in the list of notes of this podcast episode and if you are touched, moved and inspired by this in any way, if you are enjoying this conversation um HIListically Speaking with Khara Croswaite Brindle, please let us know, drop us a line, let us know how we can support you more on this journey. But let us get into the nitty-gritty about the Estrangement Energy Cycle. What does that mean? Can you share? ⁣

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0:15:41 - Khara Croswaite Brindle⁣

that, yeah. So the key word here is energy. Like we've already alluded to, just the thought of estranging from a family member is emotional. It takes energy. A lot of these women are coming into therapy trying to figure out what their next move is, and so the energy word is really speaking to. ⁣

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This might be pre-contemplative, this might be I'm preparing for the worst, and so I'm going through this cycle in my mind, or it could be I'm literally going through these eight stages as I figure out what's happening with mom. Um, so, although the eight stages don't have any particular order, I tend to start talking about it from this awareness of what if I have a realization, as an adult daughter, that this was abusive? Once I have that realization, I can't unsee it right as a woman, and so does that then catapult me into stage two, which is about questioning what do I want to do with this information? Do I want to talk to mom about it? Do I want to broach this with her, bring it up? Do I want to just focus on the relationship now or our future relationship? So if they decide to talk to mom, which a lot of these women feel compelled to do from a place of, I want acknowledgement, I want an apology, I want compassion, I want healing. They might say let's go to mom and talk about it. Worst case scenario depending on how mom responds to this conversation, there could be immense healing that happens of you're right, I made mistakes, I'm so sorry that happened to you, I want to do better, I love you. That'll be the best scenario for going to mom saying, hey, I have this awareness now. Worst case scenario mom gets defensive, mom gets angry, mom starts name calling, mom starts pointing fingers, which unfortunately, a lot of these women then came into my therapy practice devastated because they're like, on top of realizing that this was abusive or traumatic, my parent just minimized my experience and so that leads to that relationship rupture right when it's like I don't know if I can do this with mom anymore. ⁣

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If they feel like they want to break that pattern, they might consider a strange man, whether it's physical or emotional strange man. Now I'm like I can't talk to mom. I have to have some control over what's happening in my life, and so it might mean mom's not in it Standably. If we choose a strange one, we go into a grief and loss response. The literature, the research says that it feels like a death because it I mean it has that same emotional pull of like I'm not talking to you, it's like you're not part of my life. Might as well feel like you're dead to me. So for a lot of those women they're coming into therapy at that stage too of like this is devastating, I'm depressed and anxious, I'm in grief. Breathe it From there. ⁣

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They have to start kind of questioning what their identity is Like. What is my self worth without mom? So now is it I have different interests when mom's not weighing in on what I want to do with my life. If mom was maybe overbearing, do I feel like I'm just figuring it out? Who am I without her? What kind of woman am I? What kind of mother am I if I'm a mother, if that's applicable. ⁣

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And then they go into the deeper work, which is, as a therapist, my favorite, because now they're looking at boundaries, other relationships, attachment styles, what's it look like with romantic partners Now that they have this awareness of what's going on with mom? And then, last but not least, is redefining their self worth. So who am I? But, more importantly, where am I headed from here If mom's not a part of my life? Or not reconciling. How do I navigate milestones, holidays, family events you know it's not a joyful thing for these women. It's usually still quite painful, different points of their life where mom should be present and isn't right. So think of like getting married, having a child. Mom is usually a part of that if it's a healthy relationship. So at no point in this cycle is there like hearts and flowers happening for this woman. But maybe she's starting to feel more empowered by the end of I know where I am, I know where I'm headed, even if it's not with mom in my life. So those are kind of the quick overview of those eight stages in the book. ⁣

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0:19:31 - Hilary Russo⁣

It's beautiful. It's beautiful to be able to find yourself in that journey. I mean, you're going to go through, like you said, the stages of grief, but you also are becoming more empowered that for a long time, that daughter could be feeling that everything's her fault you know, or she makes an attempt to reach out and she gets, like you said, she gets very disappointed. She gets disappointment from a defensive parent or mother in this case, right. ⁣

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And then how do you go from there, like you become vulnerable and take that courageous step to reach out? But also, what's responsibility has the daughter had in all this? You know this is not just to put blame on the mother right, it's also what was my responsibility in this. But if a daughter has reached out and has made an attempt and says I'm willing to see the other side, and then all you get back is the upset from the mother, her side not seeing anything, like you said, where do you go from there? ⁣

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0:20:35 - Khara Croswaite Brindle⁣

Yeah, and I mean a lot of these women. What I appreciated about what I'm hearing from people who've read it so far is I put in nine women's stories and we like continue to kind of see their journey on all eight stages. All nine of these women, some of them reconcile, some of them have permanent estrangement from significant abuse and neglect. But I tried to capture, like here are all different types of women that I've worked with over the years that now embody these stages and how emotional each of them are. And so I call out the people pleasing, I call out the perfectionists, I call out the did I do enough? ⁣

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Because of course the adult daughter is thinking that at some stage she is asking herself did I do enough? Did I fight enough for this relationship with mom? Should I have done better? Is there a way I could have won her over? Do I deserve unconditional love? Right, I'm like a real deep into the like emotion of it. So I try to name all of that as, like for these women. There's so much to unpack there. It's not just I got to one stage, it's what am I thinking and feeling at each of those stages? And those stories embody that. ⁣

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0:21:37 - Hilary Russo⁣

And then you have to think about leader in life, when the mother might need to have a caregiver. Like, how do you abandon that parent who has hurt you in some way? Do you come back full circle and say this person's in the last part of their lives? But I also need to have these healthy boundaries so that I'm not impacted in a negative way while I'm trying to be supportive and of service to this person who is needing support. You know I hear that a lot as well. ⁣

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0:22:08 - Khara Croswaite Brindle⁣

Oh, yeah, there's this pressure to reconcile. You know, there's the societal message of you're going to regret this. What if they die suddenly? Right? So I have a whole section in the book of, like community members, what we can say and what we shouldn't say. What is actually more hurtful to this traumatic experience of estrangement for this adult daughter? Because, again, an assumption is that this was easy for her, this was impulsive for her, when really it's like months or years of the process. ⁣

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I have one client that inspired one of these characters in the book that even now, 10 years into her work, she continues every year to question should I reach out to mom this year? Should I talk to mom this year? There's significant trauma there that mom will not own at all, and so it's fascinating how human this is right To say. Am I going to have regrets? Am I going to be sad if I get a call that mom has died? If mom's, you know, going into needing care, how do I show up for her? Should I show up for her? There's so much there and obviously each woman's story is unique as to what they decide. But, yeah, society is definitely saying family first. You're going to regret this, right. So I really try and talk about what we could say differently than that. ⁣

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0:23:12 - Hilary Russo⁣

Yeah, being able to support yourself and know how to nurture yourself in that moment and not find yourself in a place where you're oh, I don't know. I mean, like I said earlier, the gaslighting, the manipulation, any kind of toxicity that might come with words, because suddenly you go back to the inner child, suddenly you can be a five year old, hearing words from that parent and you feel it like you did. If you ever witnessed that before as a child. Speaking of children, do you find that there are some women that have made a choice not to have children because they were scared to have the kind of relationships that they witnessed from generations in the past, like if a mother and a daughter or a grandmother and a mother are not communicating or a sister is not communicating generation before you, suddenly you feel like, well, I'm going to just wind up having the same thing, so I'm not having kids, I'm not entering, I'm not bringing anything into this world, because this trauma is just generational. ⁣

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0:24:15 - Khara Croswaite Brindle⁣

Yeah, oh, absolutely. I mean, we actually tackle that in the book as well as, like, one of the beliefs is what if I'm broken? But what if I pass this on to my kid? What if I become my mother, for better or worse? Right In this lens of worse, I think that's such a natural thought. And then I actually, when I started writing this book, I just give birth to my daughter, and so I was very aware that I was writing about attachment and trauma and healing, as I was also trying to build healthy attachment with my infant daughter. And so many people worry about, you know, especially if they're like, tracking all these things in the family tree. I think of even just medical conditions and mental health conditions of like, oh, am I going to bring that into my child's life? Yeah, it's causing a lot of fear for people of like, what if this gets recreated again? What if this estrangement is possible in another generation? That's valid. ⁣

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0:25:04 - Hilary Russo⁣

Do you talk specifically about attachment styles in the book? ⁣

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0:25:07 - Khara Croswaite Brindle⁣

I do, yep, I talk about the secure, anxious avoidant, disorganized, how that shows up from childhood into adulthood. Absolutely yeah, can't help myself. ⁣

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0:25:16 - Hilary Russo⁣

That's definitely an area you're yeah, no, I get it and it's so interesting, but I think we're seeing more people that are diving into not self therapy, because obviously we need support, especially when we're dealing. We need support especially when we're dealing with trauma. Right, never do trauma work on your own. It's good to have somebody on the outside, like a licensed therapist or somebody in the field, that can support you in that area, to help you get a different perspective on things. But I do find that more people are open to learning new things, just so there's an awareness, so that when they're meeting with their therapist or their practitioner, they have a much more, they're much more aware of what is being shared with them, rather than just sitting across from your therapist or practitioner. And this is how it is right, right? ⁣

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I think, we're becoming our own healthcare advocates. What I'm saying, yeah absolutely, I mean. ⁣

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0:26:13 - Khara Croswaite Brindle⁣

I think that's why, when people are like who's this book for, I say it's for the adult daughters and it's for the clinicians that serve them, Because an adult daughter might pick up this book and say this is my experience. I feel seen by the cycle or some aspect of the book. And then there's 24 tools throughout the book that are things they could do on their own, but also I encourage them to do with their clinician to say am I doing a particular exercise? I call them therapeutic tools, but there are things I would have done with a client in the room to say does this help you in your process? Does this move you from one stage to the next? So those tools are something that those adult daughters could read, do on their own or bring into a supportive environment, whether that's a coach, a therapist, a mentor or a family member, depending on what feels appropriate. ⁣

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0:26:57 - Hilary Russo⁣

And I think we're also seeing that as well. We're seeing more people reaching out and getting coaching, because sometimes it's just like having a sister or a brother or a friend that's there to help you, that is able to see things from the outside, looking in. That isn't personally connected. There's just so much you can lay this on a family member, especially when you might be sitting there complaining to your real sister or your brother or an aunt or somebody about a family member that they already have a connection with and they have a completely different kind of relationship with. That's not helpful to any party. ⁣

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0:27:32 - Khara Croswaite Brindle⁣

Yeah, that bias of like oh I can't be neutral for you, I have my own thoughts. Yeah, this is why they go to someone outside the family. That's pretty typical. ⁣

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0:27:40 - Hilary Russo⁣

Yeah. So let's mention the book again. It's Understanding Ruptured Mother-Daughter Relationships, Guiding the Adult Daughter's Healing Journey through the Estrangement Energy Cycle. And Khara also has another book that is written to support the child and the parent and the teacher. We're going to put both of those in the links to this podcast. But I have a question for you Do you find that there might be mothers that would be open to reading this book? ⁣

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0:28:09 - Khara Croswaite Brindle⁣

I hope so. I mean, I think there are lots of books out there for parents. When I was doing the research on this, getting this book up and running, I found so many books for parents that really spoke to their the will-dermant, their pain, their anger, their outrage that this was happening, which has its value right. They need to feel seen and supported as well. I feel like the mother who's going to pick up this book is someone who's I'm curious to heal. I want to reconcile, I want to work on myself. I want to understand my daughter's perspective. This book might help them with that because it's really written from the eyes of the adult daughter. So if they're feeling a disconnect where they don't understand why adult daughter has made this choice, this could be enlightening, I would hope. ⁣

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0:28:49 - Hilary Russo⁣

And maybe pave the way for a new relationship. ⁣

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0:28:53 - Khara Croswaite Brindle⁣

Absolutely. ⁣

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0:28:53 - Hilary Russo⁣

Or just an evolved relationship. You know it's lovely when we were able to see that. I want to play a quick game with you. Or if there's anything else you want to add. Let me just stop there and say is there anything else about the book you'd like to add, or anything about the Estrangement Energy Cycle? I want to give you the space to share there. ⁣

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0:29:10 - Khara Croswaite Brindle⁣

Yeah. So one other thing to highlight real quick is that we have some morning signs for both mothers and daughters. So off the top of my head it was things like you know, on the daughter side, a lack of boundaries, resentment brewing, that kind of language was in her checklist as adult daughter and then for the mother checklist it was things like are you steamrolling over those boundaries? Are you calling when she said not to call? Are you making demands? Are you feeling like there's friction? Are you getting feedback from the daughter that she's not happy with the relationship? ⁣

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So try to itemize a couple of things that both daughters and mothers could look at and say, hmm, is that true for us? Like, is that something in our life right now? Is that in the relationship right now? Is this an opportunity to discuss and heal and grow? Or is it like a ooh, that's me and I need to go do some work around that professionally with a therapist or coach or mentor or whoever? So by no means is it. You have to have one of them and you're in dire straits. It's more like the more you have on this checklist, the more you probably want to sit and think about what do I want to do with this information? Does it catapult me into a growth place of wanting to heal and change? ⁣

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0:30:24 - Hilary Russo⁣

And sometimes it might just be that the relationship needs to be on that level of some, some estrangement. Maybe you're not as close to that person and that's okay too. I think that's something I really want to put out. There is that if you come to a decision especially after reading this book, which I'm very excited to get the copy in my hand when you're able to make that decision and know that you have the tools that helped you make that decision, and if that choice is that I really need to have some safe boundaries, but I'm still open to possibly the physical strange or the emotional estrangement, but the physical I don't want to not have this person in my life. ⁣

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Whatever you choose to do if it's good for you is the right choice because it's self-first. You have to live your life before anybody else's. So everybody's journey is going to be different and I want to make sure we put that out there to those who are listening, to those who might be watching that your journey is your own. What you choose with the tools that you have is the right choice, as long as it's not hurting you or anybody else. You choose to choose and you know what. You can also make a different choice. If you decide down the line, I'm ready now Be open to that as well. ⁣

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I imagine you agree with that? Yeah? ⁣

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0:31:52 - Khara Croswaite Brindle⁣

Oh yeah, I'm just sitting here thinking about their seasons of our life right, yeah, or there's a season of independence, which is why a lot of our 20-something year olds are thinking about a strange thing, because it almost feels in alignment with independence I'm out of a nest, I'm doing my own thing. You know, the angry teenage part is like don't tell me what to do. That's what I tell my clients. We all have that angry teenage part of stubbornness, like don't tell me what to do. But then maybe I just I realize I'm going to be a mother. Maybe I'm pregnant and I'm like, wow, I really want my mom in my life. How can I have her in my life in a way that's healthy and supportive at that stage or that season of my life? Maybe I'm getting older and she's getting older, and so I think the bright spot for folks who are like man, we're in a strange moment, or one of those one in 12 people. ⁣

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There is research saying that you know, about 80% of these women are reconciling with their mothers. Obviously, we can't speak to like how long that took or what happened to make that possible, but if 80% plus percent of these women are reconciling with their mothers, there is hope that the relationship can change, that the season can change, that most of us in the mental health space are going to say we've got to work on it together. This is where, like family therapy or estrangement specialist is going to come into play, because it's complex and so it might not be as simple as just saying I owe you an apology. It might be we're doing some deep work here to have a healthier relationship, so don't feel like you have to do it on your own. I think that's what I'm saying. ⁣

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0:33:12 - Hilary Russo⁣

Well, that's the other thing. Well, both parties, or any parties involved, have to do their own healing work and growth work. It's very hard to be able to create a space where the two parties are going to come together, when only one party is willing to do the work and the other might be saying well, everything's your fault, you're the one that needs therapy. So think about those things as well. You can only do so much. It is still teamwork. ⁣

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There's still a relationship to consider and a relationship takes more than one person, except the one with yourself. That's the most important one to work on. So, with that being said, I have really enjoyed this conversation. This is so great. I cannot wait to get that book in my hands. ⁣

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You booked this so fast that I haven't gotten the book yet. I'm like I reached out to your publicist. I'm like slam me the book and I want to end with just doing a quick game with you that I do with my guests on the show. I've been writing down some words that are things you've said during this conversation and I want you to come back with the first word that comes to mind. Let's see how Tara's brain is working, oh no. ⁣

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Sometimes I think I should do this at the beginning of the podcast but then I don't have words to use. All right, you ready, I'm ready, okay, alliance. ⁣

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0:34:37 - Khara Croswaite Brindle⁣

Relationships Toxic Parenting. ⁣

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0:34:41 - Hilary Russo⁣

Estrangement, daughter, children, lovable Valderies, therapy, therapy, that's my word. Come back to that chair. ⁣

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0:34:59 - Khara Croswaite Brindle⁣

Champion. ⁣

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0:35:01 - Hilary Russo⁣

And I have to put my glasses on for this last one, because I can't read my own handwriting. Oh, I was trying to write down the name of the character in your book. ⁣

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0:35:09 - Khara Croswaite Brindle⁣

The Children's Book that name, yeah, so Penny McGee's Family Tree Penny McGee. ⁣

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0:35:15 - Hilary Russo⁣

Penny McGee. It's Penny Penny McGee, so what would you? It's two words I'm throwing out at you, but what would you say about? ⁣

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0:35:21 - Khara Croswaite Brindle⁣

that Vulnerability. ⁣

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0:35:27 - Hilary Russo⁣

And isn't that? That's a great way to end this, because starting as a child, understanding these things makes you a more well-rounded adult and, as we've heard from Brittany Brown, vulnerability is courage. ⁣

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0:35:39 - Khara Croswaite Brindle⁣

Right, it is. ⁣

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0:35:40 - Hilary Russo⁣

Yeah, absolutely is. ⁣

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0:35:42 - Khara Croswaite Brindle⁣

There's courage in the conversation. That's my hope. ⁣

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0:35:44 - Hilary Russo⁣

Thank you. There is and being vulnerable to take that step. As long as it doesn't step on your own boundaries and hurt you, it's okay. It's okay to try that as well. Are there any final thoughts you'd like to leave with listeners? ⁣

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0:35:57 - Khara Croswaite Brindle⁣

My hope is it's just gonna speak to the women who felt like they haven't had a voice in this conversation before now. So I'm really grateful that we could talk about adult daughters and what they're going through. As I alluded to, there are lots of books out there for the parents and I definitely recommend a bunch of them, and I wanna make sure these women have a voice too. So thank you for having me on the podcast to talk about it. ⁣

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0:36:16 - Hilary Russo⁣

Okay, my friends, if you or someone you know is facing family estrangement, specifically with a mother-daughter relationship, consider putting Khara's book in your hands or paying it forward. That book, again is called Understanding Ruptured Mother-Daughter Relationships Guiding the Adult Daughter's Healing Journey through the Estrangement Energy Cycle. I added a link to that book, as well as her children's book also, and you can also connect with Khara by visiting her website or her social media. You'll find those links as well. And Khara mentioned the importance of self-regulation tools. There are many. We need to put those little tools in our brain candy jar right and pull them out when we need those the sweetest ways to be kind to our mind. As I always say, Havening could be one of those tools. If you wanna learn how to hug it out, how to put the healing in your own hands, set up a call with me. Let's see if Havening is right for you. ⁣

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HIListically Speaking, is edited by 2 Market Media with music by Lipone Redding and Listen to by you, my listener. So thank you for your continued support. ⁣

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On that note, never forget the importance of healthy boundaries and if you need support, know that there is always help, because the most important relationship is the one with self. I love you, I believe in you and I will see you next week.