Queer Health and Hair ft. Jessie Santiago and Cal Bigari

Queer MEDucation

Health and Hair ft. Jessie Santiago and Cal Bigari

***DISCLAIMER: KB ONLY***

This podcast is a series of interviews with medical providers, mental health professionals, community members and advocates. Each interview represents the opinions of the individual. Individuals may use different terminology than what you’re used to. The intention is to educate not discriminate, and we welcome positive and constructive feedback. Please keep in mind; this is not a replacement for medical care or advice. I am simply presenting my views along with educational information that will be both evidence based research and external networks that have an impact on LGBTQI and nonbinary health care. Consult your provider for any medical or mental health concerns. My name is Kerin “KB” Berger and welcome to Queer MEDucation!

***INTRO MUSIC***

***INTRO TO EPISODE: KB ONLY***

Welcome back to Queer MEDucation.

Special thanks to our friends at Kaleidoscope Health. For LGBTQ and nonbinary folks, accessing healthcare presents a number of challenges. Knowing that your provider is a safe space can be a game changer. Show support for your LGBTQI and nonbinary patients and colleagues by wearing a Kaleidoscope Health pin on your white coat, daily attire or ID badge. Order pins at www.kaledioscopehealth.org

Today’s episode focuses on the relationship between LGBTQI and nonbinary health and hair. Have you ever felt uncomfortable getting your hair cut? Have you ever walked into a barbershop and they didn’t know what to do with you? Was getting your haircut ever triggering? In this week’s episode we chat with the owners’ of Salon Benders’ about creating affirming spaces that encompass bravery. As a queer person, getting your hair cut is so much more than a hair cut. The physical and mental health outcomes are tremendous. Please enjoy.

***INTERVIEW: KB, JESSIE SANTIAGO, AND CAL BIGARI***

KB: I'm here with some friends from Salon Benders'. Why don't you introduce yourselves?

CB: Hey, I'm Cal and my pronouns are he, him, his and I am co-founder of Salon Benders.

JS: And I am Jessica Santiago and the other founder of Salon Benders. Pronouns she/her.

KB: Well, thanks for being on the show today. Can you tell us a little bit about what Salon Benders is and what that means?

JS: Yeah, so basically we are a space that is, I'm queer and trans competent and we do hair for everyone. Um, but we, we like to call ourselves a straight friendly place instead of the place. Um, so we basically, you know, try to keep up with all of the lingo and tried to keep up with all the, um, all of the stuff that you know is important. Um, yeah. And so, and also like trends and styles too. Like, um, having somebody come in here and say, this is my gender expression and I'm not quite like, um, I had someone yesterday, like, I'm not quite femme. I'm not quite masculine. I'm not quite, I'm kind of somewhere in between, but I want to look like this. And to be able to say that to someone and for them to not have any questions of like, well, what does that mean? Um, I think that that's really, that's really powerful. And that's kind of, you know, that's my end of Benders' and my responsibility is really like nailing people's image and helping them express themselves, um, and the way that feels really valuable or valid to them now.

KB: That's awesome.

CB: So, Jessie is the greatest hairstylist who has ever touched

KB, CB, JS:

CB: She's amazing and, so good at what she doesn. Um, and when we started talking about the concept, um, it just was, was perfect because what she does is, is excellence. Um, and uh, and she is a gender been bender herself. She is very, she/her., but she is fierce She is loud. Um, she has all of the things that we tell women not to be. And I love it. And it's amazing. UMM. And so, so we came together and created, um, Salon Benders, which is a place of, of excellence for a community of excellence. Um, and it's a place where expression and love, uh, is really the heart of everything that we do. So

JS: He might cry.

CB: I probably will several times

KB: Cry away, if I could give you a tissues I would

CB: I'm loud and ugly crier. So that's a good thing is yes,

KB: Next time on the pre checklist. I'll put tissue box please.

CB: We do have tissues in the salon because I'm not the only one that cries. Okay. How many people have cried here to today?

JS: Two.

CB: Okay. Well actually if we can double that.

KB: Probably happy tears. I would imagine.

JS: Mostly happy tears and like some sometimes just like an overwhelming amount of gratitude just was like, oh my God, I can't believe I work here.

KB: For sure. For sure.

CB: It's a form of expression. So sometimes the expression comes through tears and giggles and yeah. You know?

KB: Yeah. So how did you all come up with this concept of a queer friendly, trans friendly salon? Like what did you, why did you think it was important? Where did it come from?

JS: Well, okay. It's kind of in story form. Um, so I worked at a hair salon. I worked in Manhattan Beach, California, which is kind of like, um, it's kind of, I should be very careful. It's conservative, it's a conservative town in my opinion. And um, and so I was, I was having conversations that were just not super valid to my experience of life and just like, you know what I called them like rich people problems, like, oh, I can't, I couldn't drive my Bentley today because it, so I'm driving my Range Rover, whatever. And I'm like, what? Like, and that kind of conversation was just starting to like really, really challenged me. So I would come home from work and would lay on the couch and be like, I can't do this anymore. I'm going to quit doing hair. Like I can't, I just can't do this anymore. And he would say to me often, like, you're, what you're doing is so important. Like you're doing, you're helping people with their image and all of these things. And I'm like, but am I like, is that a real thing? And it was kind of his idea. He was like, why don't you market yourself to more queer and trans folks instead of, you know, the folks that you have been working on. I think that you would like have more of a joyful experience. And I just kind of judged that. I was like, I don't think that that I can do that because I'm not trans and I, how can I possibly speak or help someone with a trans experience if I don't have one myself? And, uh, he's just like my biggest cheerleader ever. And he's like, well, you're good at what you do and you don't have to have a trans experience to give a really amazing haircut and to listen to how someone wants to be. How has someone, how the way somebody wants to express themselves, you know, you can listen to that and you can that. And I'm like, yeah, you're right, I can do that. And so it was really just the real conversation that he mentioned that we were like, okay, that's where it really started is that tiny little car. You remember that conversation? We had car.

CB: I do. Yeah. And I, I mean, it wasn't, it wasn't just like the Bentley conversations and whatnot. It was like fat shaming and body shaming and expression shaming that was really, you know, packaged up in that. And we started talking about expression and how, you know, she's got a huge background of, um, of meditation and wellness and spirituality in that sense. And that is what the essence of her hair practice is, is about expressing something beautiful that is inside and allowing it to be shown on the outside, whereas that wasn't, that wasn't really truly being captured or appreciated in her, um, in her realm. And I said, there's a community.

KB: So I guess what's, what's your role in all this, Cal? Like where, how did you decide to come together with this vision, this inspiration, build what you're building now?

CB: Like Jesse said, seeing an amazing resource and, um, and the capacity to serve a community that is really underserved and my own experience as a, as a trans masculine person. So I was raised and identified female for a very long time. Um, and then once I started my transition and started growing a beard and grooming myself, I didn't know how to navigate. I was terrified of barbershops, like barbershops really affirmed my gender identity, but it was also horrifying to me because there was so much gender performance that was happening there and there was so much masculinity and I didn't yet, um, I wasn't taught that, you know, I wasn't taught how to groom my beard and I wasn't taught the social cues of like, I was still trying to talk to people in the men's bathroom and they're like, no, no, no, you don't talk to anyone. That is totally against the rules here. So going into a place that was like totally male dominated, like I learned, I learned, okay, don't, don't speak, say as few words as possible. I also had a high voice and a different growth pattern of my facial hair that I was afraid of being clocked. So I have, um, you know, a lot of fear about being in this space and, um, and just saw a huge opportunity.

KB: What, what is gender performing? Can you, I don't think I've ever heard that term before. You used it in the context of the barbershop.

CB: Uh, gender performance. I don't know if I'll do it justice, but I'll communicated as I know it. Um, we're all constantly performing gender in some way or another as been told. Um, don't do that. That's not ladylike. You're, you've been cued that you're not performing gender "properly". Right. Um, so I think as a, as a trans person, gender performance feels like something that has to be taught, um, are for me as a trans person, I had to relearn my gender performance because I was taught to perform in a certain way, sit with your legs, cross, don't speak too loud, don't eat so messy. Um, a lot of things about like taking up space that women are not supposed to do. Um, so I had to learn a different, a different way to, um, to be perceived as male in my community. And I still don't perform gender, um, properly, if you will. And so I'm generally perceive as a gay man. Um, and then they're really confused when I have this beautiful feminine partner. Um, they're like, wait, but I thought you were a homosexual. I'm like,

CB: It's like the best part. It's so fun.

JS: I think your boyfriend is gay. Yeah. So what if he is.

CB: Because they're reading my gender performance as feminine.

JS: Right.

CB: Um, I'm perceived as gay, we clack feminine with gay and it's just all fun to play with and in my perspective too. So, um, I don't know. Did that answer your question?

KB: Totally! I mean, I guess so. So then your personal experiences, your communication with Jessie, you had this conversation and then you then what? I mean you just decided to, okay, we're going to quit our jobs and, and when did you really decide to kind of go for it?

JS: Yeah, what you just said was like, I mean, it really is a decision. Like we, um, we decided, uh, in February (2018) we decided in February that we were going to do, this was the right after my birthday. And he was like, let's just do it. And I was like, okay, first things first we got to find a space. So from February to April, we searched for a space and that was our very first thing that we did. Um, we just kind of like roll the ball and started looking at rental spaces, commercial spaces. Neither of us had ever owned a business. We had no clue, what

Everyone:

JS: We still have no clue what we're doing. We're like, how is this still open today? So they just decided, um, to start to and I was just like, let's just go step by step. Like we have a space. Then the next thing we do is decorate it or build it out. And the next thing we do is, you know, um, uh, business licenses and cosmetology licenses and all of these other things and like, so step by step it, I like in this thing to having a child. Nobody was given a manual. Nope. Even if you study child psychology or you studied early childhood development when you were a kid, like all bets are off, right? The heck you're doing. And I think it's the same as owning a business. Like you can study business all day long. I've been cutting hair for 17 years. I know how to do that. But like even if you, you study business, you still will need to know, like, you still have no idea what you're getting ready to get into. So we just decided and we let it teach us. And we're still kind of letting it teach us.

KB: The concept of your space and what you were looking for, and you know, was it just any old place or was it a symbolic? I feel like that's a huge decision to make and you have to almost have a very specific vision for, for what's, to build a space like what you're building.

CB: Oh my God, I love this things that we're in. The coolest thing, well let's say it was really important for both of us, um, to have a community driven space, a space that felt comfortable for people to just chill at, a place for people to not have to gender perform necessarily, um, or to perform in whatever way they wanted to. So, um, and just feel really comfortable in their expression. So we wanted a place that felt really ooey gooey and really nice and comfy. Um, and we found this space and that's a whole other story. But this, this space is a, we call it the teapot because it has a giant teapot on top

JS: It's a hundred year old building.

CB: Yup. It has a crazy rich history and it has been through its own transformation, um, many, many transformations. But essentially it was going to be ripped down. Um, the city had deemed it a public nuisance. There was, um, a whole bunch of folks, um, making their home in here, um,

JS: AKA squatting.

CB: Yup, they were squatting. Um, yeah, so they were, they were going to knock it down and our landlords actually purchased the building and um, and with the historic committee renovated it back up to its original. Um, it's whole original, beautiful, like in its best self. And that just was so perfect for us because, um, because of what that means for, for the Queer and Trans specifically community is like, we see that the Trans Community and the, I'm giving this really big overarching umbrella and we know there's a lot of like variation within this, but a lot of oftentimes the trans community is this kind of forgotten community that is not given the power, um, or recognition that it actually has. Right. And that's what happened to this space was no one was paying attention to it and no one was tending to it and no one was telling it. It was beautiful and powerful and amazing. And so it looked like trash. You know, it was, it was really falling apart and it wasn't in its power. Um, and of course it has these beautiful bones. It has this immense power and all it needed was, was folks to come and, and say, we see you, we got you, and we're going to help you build up. And there's a really beautiful power parallel there. Um, I think when this community is really honored for the power that it has, we believe that the capacity that we have to change the world and make the world a better place is UNfreaking believable. Like it's just an unreal, just like this space, what it's turned into.

KB: I love that comparison, that, that transformation idea of the physical space, the physical person and all the, you know, the bones need, needs some tender loving care. But ultimately with some TLC can see how beautiful it can fall becoming. Yeah. I love, I love that comparison. That's awesome.

JS: It's kind of perfect. That this is our, I mean like I see this, this space as our first space. Like I actually like Salon Bendors and needed this to be its first space because of all of the symbolism and all of their amazing ooey gooey energy that's in here. Um, and if we don't happen to keep this space, we know that, that we want to bring that energy with us in our next place. And if we open up to Benders or three Benders or however many, we still want to keep kind of like that, that, um, unique feel to the space. So even if it's like, you know, a new modern place or something like that, but keeping some kind of like really unique vibe to it because this is such a unique concept, you know?

KB: Definitely.

JS: Our building has to also kind of reflect that a little bit wherever we are.

KB: Yeah. And I think it probably always will, whether it's modern or historic or contemporary it, you know, it's all about what's on the inside really. So I love the, and

CB: I want to say one other thing that's on the inside that is really freaking awesome is beautiful, beautiful wood, um, hand crafted built by queer women.

JS: Basically everything in here was, uh, created, built, made, um, sewn together. Like literally I designed every single thing in here. Um, was, was made by Queers and Trans folks, space for whole, we gave work to, to our own community and we searched high and low for them.

KB: Yeah. Was that a hard thing to find?

JS: No. Yeah. I mean it was, it at first it was, I was like, what, how am I going to find the like a wood worker or contractor? I mean how am I going to find all of these people in our community? And it just took literally asking like I had never really asked my community for anything and said like, Hey, I need this. And as soon as I did, people started showing up. So I thought it was going to be harder than it actually was. Okay.

KB: Interesting because we think of like social media as the ultimate outlet of finding things and Google and all that stuff. But it's, it sounds to me like something that's unique about the queer community is the word of mouth and the smallness of it in a way where, you know, I know my personal experience of starting this podcast and this idea, anybody that I asked to be part of it is excited and they're excited because when you talk about it, you, you feel something different that maybe you know, a non queer person may not understand or feel. And that's the beautiful part about the community aspect.

JS: Totally. Yeah, we have an amazing community with some amazing, amazing people inside of it. And like we have to, we have to build each other up

KB: For sure.

JS: And bring that brilliance out. And it's, it's the same thing that we're doing with hair. You feel like, oh you come in here and you feel like your hair's fine. Great. Let me, let me hook you up.

KB: Yeah, totally. How you do think hair and health kind of go together and, and what that means maybe for you personally or maybe for some of your clients?

JS: My Gosh, I just got goosebumps. I feel like this question is so loaded.

KB: It's super loaded. Like I feel my own experience, you know, you know, asking that question. So I'd love to hear you know, you as the doers.

JS: What a brilliant question. Thank you for that. Um, yeah, so I think there's two, there's two elements to this for, for me. Um, the way that I think that hair and health kind of come together is, is physically so I can actually physically feel in someone's hair if there is some health stuff happening, I can't diagnose anything. But after 17 years of doing hair, you kind of, you can kind of gather like, oh, this person could be in poor health for whatever reason. I don't know, but you can, you can tell these things. And then there's, there's emotional and mental health around that too. Um, and I mean I have a million stories that I can tell that kind of will sum this up. But really it's all about like you have to really look at the history of hair to really understand this. Every other culture, I mean every other culture besides American culture has some kind of depth to their hair. They have some kind of cultural like ritual or something around their hair. Like if they're unhealthy, they shaved their head and they, they cleanse themselves completely from the inside out and they're like, when my hair grows back and it is down to my hip, so we be healthy, again, like there's like all of these, these different, these different kind of like cultural things that other countries do. And Americans just use their hair like, uh, this, you know, superficial best assessory or

KB: Right, almost like a luxury if you're going to a certain location, especially living in Los Angeles, you know, to get a trim costs sometimes $150 and it could barrier almost people

JS: Exactly. When I think that we'd make it a little bit more accessible. Your hairstyle is, can actually provide you with some insight that you, you know, that you, you might need. Like I, I could, you know, today I was doing someone's hair and I was like, are you eating enough protein? And she's like, you know what? I stopped eating meat a long time ago and I've been feeling really lethargic and I could feel it in her hair. It was like I had done her hair before and it wasn't that brittle. It wasn't that dry. And this time around I was like, hmm. You know, and, and just that little tiny insight, I don't know, like I have no idea what's going on, but I just asked a question, you know, about her protein because our hair is made of protein. So if it's drying brittle, there could be some protein things happen in your body. And it just so happens she's like, you know what? That was what I needed to hear because I thought it was, I was, you know, bringing in enough protein, I don't want to have animal protein, but now I know I can up my dosage a little bit, you know, whatever. For my protein shake and just like, so I think there's so many ways that hair and health come together. Like I said, physically, emotionally and spiritually even and all of the things I think that like doing hair is, is so beneficial for my health and for others. Yeah. I don't know, that was not a rant.

Everyone:

KB: The best rant.

CB: I almost, I feel like I just heard a couple of stories that I feel it would be really amazing to share just talking about like we're queer hair and, and mental health and what some of those like cuts and things

JS: I did, I did a haircut yesterday that it was just, I can't stop thinking about it still right now. And um, so this person comes in and she has very long hair and it's, she's, she's sits down in my chair and she just goes to cut my hair off. I mean like cut my hair off. And I was like, okay, well do you have a picture? Shows me like literally a pixie cut, like going from hair down to her hips to like the shortest hair and like right then and there, that is my first indicator of what's going on, you know, like what's happening. Why? So I sat with her for 45 minutes before her haircut and had a full on therapy session with her to see where she was and where she wanted to be like. And basically the whole thing was I have been under this hair because I have been afraid that I wasn't going to get the job that I needed and wanted. My security was literally going to be, um, I was going to have, I was not going to be able to eat if I had short hair. This is literally how her brain was going together. I needed it. This, I need this job so I'm going to grow my hair out and seem femme because I'm around people that do not like women with short hair. And she had been living like this for so long, so long and she was like, but my insides feel more masculine, although I identify as female. But my image just does isn't matching up. So it was a three hour haircut by the way. Three and a half hour haircut. And we cried many, many, many times. And we laughed. And it was like when she left, it was, I mean I just went home and just like floated

KB: Spiritual.

JS: Yeah, it really, it really was. And she left and she was like, she hugged me like a hundred times and was like, I love my hair. And almost like I don't give it a crap if I go to work tomorrow and nobody likes my hair because I am back, I'm back. You can see it and feel it. And I mean like, and, and honestly, this is one of so many stories, but now what was one of the fresh ones?

JS, CB: So good. So good. So rich.

KB: Yeah. Well, I mean I, my personal story about hair and health is, I never knew what it meant to have a real relationship with a hairstylist until I knew what it meant to have a real relationship with hairstylists. Like, you know, my mom would schedule me appointments, I'd go to them, sometimes I'd let my hair grow forever. I had really, really, really long hair always. Um, and um, for me it was just kind of a task versus an experience. And when I was in Grad School, for, to be a PA, I, um, I looked up a place and looked up like queer LGBT hair people and I found Susan. And I show up to see Susan and I, my hair is down to like my mid back and I'm like, I'm ready to chop it. And I had a conversation with somebody fairly recently who expressed her experience with chopping her hair off and saying that it felt like her security blanket through my own personal stuff that I was going through. I was like, I do not want a security blanket right now. And I was always really scared to cut my hair off. I don't even really know why consciously if it was societal or my own insecurities or whatever. But um, honestly Susan changed my life every time I'd go to see her, I was excited to be there. It wasn't a task. It was a pleasure. And she listened to me. She, I mean, you're right, like touching somebody's hair, washing their hair, feeling there, the connection to their brain. I mean, it's so powerful. Um, so I, I honestly can't even imagine doing the work that you do crying every single day.

JS: I joke about it. I'm like, okay, today's going to be the day that I go to work and I don't cry. Like it hasn't happened yet.

JS, CB:

KB: And then the question is, when you were working in a different setting, were you having those experiences and, you know, what makes this so different I guess is the real question?

JS: Absolutely. Yeah. No, I wasn't having these experiences. In fact, yeah, there were, there were tears but they were not tears of joy. They were tears of frustration and you know, and I like, I worked with some great people. Um, I had, uh, I had a really, really kind coworkers who I love so much and really great, amazing clients. I had like, I feel like I gathered around like the best of the best of the, of the South Bay clients and I had like a tiny little bubble. But what was happening was I wasn't seeing anyone new I, I felt like I was, I was in a bubble of where those people were sweet and kind and nice, but they weren't relating to the things that I was relating to. Like when I said that I had a trans boyfriend, I had to literally explain to every single person what that meant, which was an honor to me to be able to like share that, you know? And I was like, this is important so we should talk about it. And then at the same time, it's kind of like, at some point, I kind of want to go to work and just be like, this is my boyfriend. You know what I mean? Like I don't know. So I wasn't having the same experiences of having these mind blowing like every single day, every day, mind blowing hair appointments. It was like, hey, this person coming in for their six week hair appointment. And it was always like dynamic and lovely and beautiful and amazing. But that little, those little sprinkles on top, we're not there yet.

CB: Like every time there's a new person on the book, it's like, oh my God, I wonder who they're going to be and what their story is going to be.

JS: And like, oh, it's so excited. So excited. Do another person. No. Do you know that person? Oh my God. Who are they? How do they find those? What's their story?

CB: Everyone is like a superstar that we just cannot wait to get to know.

KB: And Cal, if you don't mind sharing the first time, maybe you had a particular getting your haircut that was meaningful or life changing or something different than just a regular haircut.

CB: Yeah. Um, well I think I cut my hair and my mom gave me a bowl cut when I was very young. She was great. My mom and my mom is incredible. She's like one of my biggest supporters. Um, and as soon as I was able to say like, I want short hair, she was just like, okay, great and did it. Um, so there wasn't like a lot of drama and trauma around it. I was so happy. Um, I wanted to grow up to be Michael Jordan, so I was really hoping that that haircut was going to help. Uh, you know, I mean, I'm still working, I'm a b-ball skills, but I think what, what really, like the haircut experience that really has influenced me with Benders is when I first started my transition, I was so incredibly blessed to be in a community of amazing trans men. Um, I sought them out and found them immediately and ended up living with, uh, three other trans guys who really transformed and, and, and they taught me how to grow up into my own manhood. Um, and we would, um, we would sit around and cut each other's hair in exchange for six packs of beer. Um, the haircuts in the later in the evening were worse than the ones earlier in the evening.

KB: Oh, just, just more creative.

Everyone:

CB: Absolutely. Yes, absolutely. Um, a little more flair, but it was, it was, you know, like we talked about incredibly intimate and in a great way for us to take care of each other. Um, we generally would do this on the same night that we would call it a T party. We would give each other our testosterone shots and do hair cuts for each other. And it was really like the things that we were scared to do, we would do for each other and we would do together. Um, it was really something. Yeah, I love those men.

KB: That's beautiful. I see my, my goal is that every person on the planet has a story like that person or place or, or something that you are so comfortable, you don't even have to think about how comfortable you are. Yeah. So that's awesome that you found that.

CB: And I just want to share one thing. Like I think that, um, you know, where I just want to like call out that we're having a very like assigned female at birth heavy conversation. And I also want to talk about Salon Benders is, is really one of, one of the most impeccable things that Jessie is at is she's a hard femme and she works really well with them and them. I mean, she does all sorts of expression. But one of the things that's really beautiful for her to, for me to watch her do is working with the Trans Feminine community. And really our, our space does, you know, we welcome all and, and we really hold femininity in a, in a, in a really strong, um, an elevated position. It's really important because just as much as it is powerful for somebody who's been told that they need to have long hair to get it cut, for someone who has not been taught how to care for their hair or their skin or their makeup or their, their, their presentation when they are able to come into a space and she says, bring your curling iron, bring your makeup, bring, bring your tools and I will show you how to use them.

JS: Well, the fact, here's the thing, what's m stem folks, right? I mean it takes, I don't know, I'm probably, well, this is a generalization. It can sometimes take a little bit longer to do "femme things", right?

CB: Like there's a different expectation. There's a higher expectation of, okay, you're going to be putting yourself together.

JS: Right. And I think that like even cis women, have no idea how to care for their skin and how to care for their hair. Often time, you know, I feel like I have a lot of, um, a lot of compassion for the Trans Feminine Community because I taught, um, I started off teaching cis women how to do their makeup and skincare and like, like trans women would come in and say like, Oh, you know, shame themselves, like, I should know more about this. And you know, like I, I really am bad at my makeup and I really don't have any like routines. I don't even know what to buy. I'm like, sister, nobody does. Like, it's not as trans woman thing that you don't know how to like get her for your skin and hair. It's, you know, and so that right there is like really something that I like to, I like to talk to, to Trans Feminine folks about is that you don't need to be ashamed that you don't understand how to do your makeup and hair. Um, because most of us we have to learn somewhere and most of us did your, you know, did your mom, my mother didn't sit me down and say, this is how you do a wing tip eyeliner. They be like, what is a wing tip eyeliner? Like what are you talking about?

KB: No idea.

CB: And I still don't know.

JS: Exactly. And that's, I mean, and so like I just, I feel like I'm, I really revel in my femininity. I love being female. I love the fact that like I, and the way that I am female, I like to walk into a room today. Literally I have a dress and boots on and I think like, I love that I actually got a compliment today. I was on my bike with my fanny pack on and my hat and someone said, you look adorable and sexy at the same time. And I'm like score. Like I'm killing it today. So I don't know. I just feel like the, I like to play around in femininity, whether it's someone who has short hair, someone who has long hair, someone who wears makeup, someone who doesn't wear makeup. I like to meet people where they are

CB: It's about expressions. You want to know how to do a wing tip eyeliner, great. And if you don't, great.

KB: Yeah, I mean I think, I think you hit the nail on the head with, you got up today, put yourself together in the way that you wanted to and you, not only did other people perceive your confidence and your beauty and your hotness, but you owned that enough where somebody noticed it. And I think that's a huge part of people feeling comfortable either with the right haircut or the wing tip or the right or the right skincare. And you know, again, creating that space where they never had the opportunity to either ask people or feel comfortable saying, I really just don't know how to do this. Please help me. Because you're constantly be, there's all this negative energy. And this negativity behind superficiality, unfortunately. And, and, and for the queer community, I think owning your expression is, is, is so much more than your physical self.

CB: When it comes from that space of owning it and expressing it, it's not from a place of shame of I was told that I have to do this or I want to whatever. It's like truly who are you and what, what do you want the world to see of you? And how can we help? It doesn't matter where you came from or what somebody told you. It's, it's what, who, who are you, that's, that's the whole point.

KB: Right. Exactly. And I think, I think one thing that I'm picking up is that it doesn't really matter how you identify. Um, it's understanding how you identify and understanding that it's a process of course, but you know, for you, Jessie, you love being a woman. You feel woman, but it's all your feeling. I mean, nobody can replicate that feeling. And, and I think the problem with all the negativity in the world is, unfortunately, it, it just brings everyone down.

JS: Totally. And it doesn't allow you to play in your expression the there's not, if you're not, you do not live as a man or as a woman. It's kind of like, well you know, well like I was having a conversation with my sister that I still am thinking about and she's like, but femininity is this and masculinity is this. Like she's like, when I think of Marilyn Monroe, I think of pure femininity. When I think of Marilyn Monroe, I'm like that's a bad bitch. Like she was a curvy girl that was like, I don't give a shit what anybody says. This is who I'm going to be. This is how good and like to me that is also feminine. But I see her see femininity differently than than my sister and also everyone else in the world. So I like to just ask people like describe to me how you feel. And it doesn't necessarily have to do with masculine and feminine. You can be colors for all I care, flavors of ice cream. Like I can pick up people's expression and how they want to look just by having like a conversation. No one asks you that, hey, how did you want to be perceived today to today? Because tomorrow could be a totally different thing. And just asking someone that question has unlocked so many conversations in my chair, at least it's been pretty spectacular.

KB: And that's what's awesome about being alive is figuring all that stuff out.

JS: Isn't that the point?

KB: And if you want to pretend to know what femininity is all the power to you, mark. And we did a great job. They taught everybody how we're supposed to be the movies, all that jazz. But in reality, when you're at home alone thinking about it, that's what's really meaningful. So yeah. So can you tell us a little bit, I'm going to shift gears a little bit. Tell us a little bit about not only the hair side of things, but some of it, some other things that you're doing over at, at Benders.

CB: Yeah. Um, we have some amazing things happening and one of the many amazing things which we have invited many people from the community who are excellent in their craft to come and share their knowledge with our amazing community. So we have a beautiful backyard space. It is absolutely stunning. It has all the who we can me feels, um, that the inside of the salon has. And it feels like a wonderful little community space. And we've had a number of events back there. We've run a queer self defense class, a clothing swap. Um, yeah, we have a bike ride that we do on the first wait second, second Tuesday of every month. Yes. We have a kickball team? Yeah, we have a kickball team. So we're healing some sports team trauma wounds together. Yeah.

KB: Yeah. That's a whole different episode. I think.

JS : We did a GSA art show.

CB: That was amazing to me. That's a whole other...

JS: 12 year olds coming in telling, uh, telling us about their coming out stories, um, doing arts singing.

CB: …who are also mentored by 20 year olds who have been coming into this space so they have more on this...Anyway, there's, there's so much. Anyway, there are young queer artists. So are we. We love art. We love meditation. We were forms of expression that, um, are holistic and enriching. And, um, and you know, I, I know that like being in the bars as another sense of community, we do have our community and I'm not shaming or hating on that. That is a whole other side. But we want to kind of come out into the light and say like, let's offer something else, too, is if you only place...

JS: Because there's tons of bars, there's, yeah, I mean I can count five bars on Broadway,

CB: Right, within five blocks

JS: Exactly. I can't tell you one clear space that isn't centered around alcohol.

CB: And so that's the lgbt center. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. Yeah. Which we, we love the center and we kind of share resources with them. So. Awesome. Anyway, um, yeah, if you were running some community events, we have them on our calendar. Um, and we essentially, we know how powerful it is to have space and that will, now that we have space, we want to share it with our community who took part in getting us to where we are.

KB: I'm a cup is half full kind of gal, but I am curious to know if you've had any negative push back when you were starting Benders from, you know, family, friends, community or any kind of challenges that maybe were unexpected, um, with your excitement about this vision.

JS : Yeah, I'd like to start off with that. I like, I like the sandwich technique, so there's, you know, the positive, negative, positive. So I'm going to start off with a positive. Our parents think we're freaking rock stars. Okay. So we told our parents and both of them are like our moms, both of our moms were like, yes. Oh my gosh. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. So that was kind of awesome. And just to have the support of your mother when you're thinking about changing your whole entire life around that gave both of us. Yeah.

CB: Priceless.

JS: I mean, such, such an amazing thing. So, um, but I got a lot, I actually did get a lot of, um, I don't know if I would call it negative feedback, but I got a lot of, um, I experienced a lot of doubt. So I started talking to my, some of my clients, some of my clients were amazing and so supportive and some of them come to Benders now I'm all the way from, you know, 20 miles away, which is not that far. You drive with traffic, it's getting crazy out here. So, but then there was like a breadth, the client and, and people that were like, so you really think that's actually gonna like take off? Like how are you actually going to make money doing that? That literally was my, that was like the number one question was like, how are you actually going to make money doing that? Like, so are you going to, oh, I like this one too. Are you going to let quote unquote regular people go there? Um, what regular people, they really are not going to be successful. Like, so that was, um, I mean, and I still, I still to this day get that question. Um, and yeah, so I have had, I personally have had some kind of like some, some serious doubt. Um, and, and then that's like, to me out a little bit, I can't even mind. Like there was definite, there were, there were definitely times where I would be sitting across from like three cis white dudes. Sorry. But it's true on it that are like, so y'all tell me exactly what your, you know, what your plans are. And I'm like, oh no, like do some cool shit. Like, you know, like, and they're like, yeah, that's not going to work but you're not going to be able to do that. Um, and we, I don't know that this is true 100% true, but I feel also that like when we were looking for spaces, um, when we would actually say like, this is what we're doing. I think that there were some people, landlords that were kind of like a, I don't know if we want to rent you. Not, not, maybe cause we look young maybe because this is our first business. Maybe because it was the business model, I don't know. But we definitely did get some pushback, in some, and some nos, from several people before our yes.

CB: And, and I would also say I think when, when probed, when I would probe people about it a lot of, particularly though there were a lot of like gay identifying people who said Long Beach doesn't need that. Oh yeah. That was another thing too. Like, oh we don't need that. Like every place is a gay place in Long Beach or like, well there's plenty of gay friendly things and gay owned businesses but queer and trans is a different, you know, it's a whole different, there is, there is a lot of gay male spaces. Right?

JS: Right. But in Long Beach there is, there is zero queer and trans places that would not have found

CB: Not true. Wide Eyes Open Palms is the exception of that right now. There's a queer coffee shop.

JS: Yep. So two queer places.

Everyone:

CB: And Long Beach is really queer.

JS: And so people were like, yeah, you're not going to really need that. But you know, it seems that there is a need for this where it's, you know,

CB: People are not coming here saying they were looking.

JS: So where did you find this? Oh, we yelped queer hair salons, and I've been yelping forever, and finally something popped up.

KB: Yeah. I mean, again, like I did the same thing a couple of weeks ago before I met you guys. I looked up queer salons in LA and there's one, that I know of and that's where every queer person that goes to a salon goes to whether you're a celebrity or regular person.

JS : Exactly. Yep. Exactly.

KB: It's, it's such an interesting, um, concept that's hard to explain, I think to the general population, the reasoning behind why spaces are important. Um, and I think it also comes back to the question of my normal versus your normal versus other people's normals and other people never really being questioned at the fact that my normal might be different than your normal. Um, and I think once you plant that seed, it's a little bit easier to have, to build on those conversations. It's so important to have queer spaces and it's hard to explain that.

Speaker 4: Yeah. And one of the things that we like to say about our space too is that like, we do realize that it's really, really important to have when your spaces, and I,, personally think it's, it's equally as important to have a message of integration. So I like in our space, we actually do not, um, we do not call ourselves or identify as a safe space. We like to identify as a brave space. And so we like to ask people to come in here regardless of their orientation or their gender expression or who they are and come in with, with bravery on their backs if they can and be brave enough to show up as themselves and have, you know, conversations with people that may or may not look like that, you know, somebody that may or may not look "normal" to them, you know, whether they're gay, straight, queer, whatever, whatever that have a conversation, um, about, about themselves and listen to someone else. And so that, that takes some courage to do that. It takes some courage for as a straight person to walk in here and say, Hey, I like what you're doing. Can I get my haircut here?

KB: Sure

New Speaker: That takes courage. It takes courage for, you know, someone who's, uh, who's, um, not yet currently out as trans to come in here and say, hey, I, you know, I know I look like this, but this is actually my, the name that I want to go by and I would like for you to do my hair that takes courage. So you must be brave to kind of, you know, to walk through this space, kind of, you know, saying that and I, I think that it is important for us to have queer spaces AND we want to integrate too.

CB: And, and I think the piece that like, it is a piece of, of, of integration and the place has been intentionally designed to make queers comfortable. There is one bathroom.

JS: Yup. Yeah.

CB: The literature is queer. Um, you know...

JS: We cater to people...

New Speaker: We ask people to display their pronouns. We display our own pronouns. We do the thing, you know, if, if your a credit card has a different name on it, ain't nobody going to give some weird look or whatever, you know, just this, these, there are barriers to full access to quality service that knocked down their capacity of being brave because if I've been, if I've, if I've been, you know, kind of smacked around three times, by the time I'm sitting down in my chair, you're saying your name is what, and they have to choose which bathroom they're going to go to. And there's a vogue magazine with a Victoria secret model on the Friday.

KB: Boooo, booo Victoria Secret.

JS: Exactly right. Like, have any magazines in our space at all. We do not even have one magazine.

CB: And then there spaces that have things like this and they're saying, oh, we're LGBT friendly because they want LGBT dollars.

JS: They're saying, I'm going to stop, get flag out on the front of here and, and totally say I'm okay with everybody, but there's still misgendering people and they're still not, you know, fully affirming someone's true, you know, or uh, or even trying to affirm.

CB: Sure.

JS: It's an expression.

CB: The intention is there and we do. We know that that is powerful because in a day and age where your, your politicians may not be taking care of your community, we get to vote in all other sorts of ways. We need to vote with our commerce. We get to vote to with, with our expression, we get to vote to say, I like this business. I would like to like it to stay there.

JS: I want to spend my money now.

CB: So we, we've, we want to be very, very open about what our values are and say when here supporting us this is what you're supporting. You're supporting the queers who built this, you're supporting the families who run this. Um, you're supporting expression and, and bravery.

KB: Yeah. I mean I think it's so multilayered. I think, you know, the biggest thing that I heard from that is you're empowering people and we're constantly being shoved deeper and deeper down, so when we try to get up, it's like, so hard to see the light.

Everyone: Yeah. You get tired of getting up.

KB: Because you don't have the same resources as the person next to you. And that's very real. But what I love about what you're doing is you are teaching people to feel empowered and confident and confident in who they are. Um, not only physically on the outside but really just how, who they are on the inside and to express that. But it's hard. It's hard out there.

JS : I was telling that the person that I was cutting their hair last night, um, about like when she was wanting to cut her hair really short and she's like, I did this so I wasn't visible. And I said, let's talk about your visibility, about how important your visibility is. And I had this whole conversation with her and I said, look, your visibility is important because of the people, the young kids that were in here just last night that got to come into our business and see a trans person. And as a queer woman of color, only in this amazing space, those kids saw my visibility could have changed someone's life yesterday or the day when those kids came in here. And same with Cal. Some, you know, trans folks are going to look at him and say, look like it trans child and look at, that's what trends could look like. That's what queer women of color could look like. That's why visibility is important,

KB: Right? As great as this time is in terms of quote trans visibility, now we have to remind ourselves that what we see out there isn't representative of all trans people and it can become the norm just like everything else is, you know, put into little boxes. You know, there's so much more to the community than what you see on TV.

JS : Right? Exactly. This is what it could look like and then you can make your own expression. You can make your own, you know, whatever it is that you want, whatever it is, however you want to be, you can create that for yourself. And that's basically the message that I, I really want to share with my community and also like with the children of my community to like, whatever you want, however you want, however you want to look. That is possible. All of the things are possible.

CB: We have to figure out how to, how to knock that down together to do it with, you know,

JS: At least we can talk about it openly. Like, yeah, so important.

KB: If we can affect one person telling him it's just going to keep growing and growing. So that's exactly. So what's the future of Salon Benders?

CB: First thing that is very exciting, which is great to talk about barriers is this week we do have, um, we do have a brand of excellence and we have put a lot of money into this business. And so our prices reflect that quality that, uh, that is the worth of what we do. And we know that not everyone in our community can access that. So what we're so excited about is I have just started an apprenticeship program. Um, so starting in the new year, I will be able to provide low cost cuts, um, for folks one or two days a week. Um, so that will, uh, be a really exciting addition and we're, we're really excited to pilot it because we know one of, one of the big things that affects our community is employability. Um, and we do believe that cutting hair is an amazing trade and skill. Um, and we'd like to pilot this to potentially in the future be a teaching salon as well, so we can help employ, um, other amazing people from our community. Um,

JS: So Cal will be my first different apprentice.

KB: Live and learn both of you.

JS and CB: That's right. Yeah.

JS: That's coming up in the future, which is really, really awesome. Yeah. We're hearing the call for exercise and so we're queer movement and I just love that just having more, um, more physical activity happening together as a, um, as a group and um,

KB: ...and not being shamed for it.

Everyone: All sorts of different body shake pay. Exactly. Yeah.

CB: All of it is kind of transformable and it's based on what the community has come forth and saying, this is what I want to provide, or this is what I want to see. So check back with our website salonbenders.com. There's a calendar page that you can click into and see what we're doing. You can follow us on facebook or Instagram, um, @salonbenders and we're actually a farre better at communicating events via those, uh, those, those, um, platforms.

JS : So the other thing too about the future I think is, um, my hope for the future of Benders is that we grow. I want people to bite my idea, our idea. I want people to steal this. I really do. Or I want somebody to just say, hey, I want to open a Salon Benders and perhaps we can become a franchise. Um, I want to, for me personally, I would like to, um, teach what we're doing here. Um, maybe in a public speaking for like, whether it's, whether it's for hairstylists all over, at hair shows or even just in like a beauty colleges coming in and talking about like, um, like LGBT hair, um, LGBTQIA hair, you know, um, I would like to definitely share this message as much as possible, which is why, you know, this, this podcast is really like, we're like, yeah, absolutely. I, we hope some hairstylist or many hairstylists hear this and say, Oh, I don't even know about that and get in contact with us.

CB: And it's something that we're already doing. So we, we have already, we've already done some training for, um, for a couple of stylists, which has been really, really, really monumental. Um, and actually Kerin and I met, um, through, uh, I did some, uh, education to up and coming physicians assistants, practitioner...

KB: Physician assistants.

CB: ...and see, so it's something that we're already doing and we would really like to do more, and we really appreciate having Salon Benders as a platform to do education, to bridge the gap and bringing, um, more, more practitioners in many fields who are excellent in their fields, competency in queer and trans issues, and serving this community with greater care.

KB: And you know, what I've learned is that once you start the conversation, people want to listen and they might be nervous or not know what you're talking about at first, but as long as you continue the conversation; You're right, you set an example, um, you know, for others to, to be great. So, yeah. And it's a tough time right now. I think it's hard to maintain positivity, but meeting individuals like you have really helped me to keep myself in line with all the beautiful things that are going on in the world as well.

JS : We appreciate it.

CB: Every shadow comes from a light baby.

JS: The bigger the shadown, the bigger the light.

Everyone: Yeah. Yup. You know. Awesome

JS : We really do appreciate that. Like, I, it's not that right there is worth everything. Yeah, exactly. It's just, you know, we can just touch one heart that's enough.

KB: Exactly that. Exactly. I mean, it's tough out there. Yep. Yeah. We just beat ourselves.

JS: We have to stick together.

KB: Exactly.

JS: We have to empower one another? It's not, it's like not an option right now. It's just not. We have to tell each other, how much we love each other, and how amazing we are and remind ourselves and our community how, how powerful we are.

CB: We're awesome.

JS: We're awesome.

CB: We're awesome.

JS: Best community ever.

***END INTERVIEW***

***CONCLUSION: KB ONLY***

For information about future episodes or to contact us, please visit us at our website www.queermeducation.com or email us at [e-mail]

***OUTRO MUSIC***