495. The Art of Money: Tokens and Technology feat. Rachel O’Dwyer

unSILOed with Greg LaBlanc

What brought about the rise of cryptocurrencies, and whats the difference between tokens and money? How are some of these modern concepts of currency much older than people may think, with older and older examples being unearthed in different parts of the world?

Rachel O’Dwyer is a writer and lecturer in Digital Cultures in the National College of Art and Design, Dublin. She’s also the author of Tokens: The Future of Money in the Age of the Platform. It’s all about how more and more traditional mone is being replaced by tokens, but this has been happening in societies for a long time.

Greg and Rachel discuss the complex and interdisciplinary nature of tokens and their relationship to money, exploring the history, regulatory implications, and the current cultural significance of token-based economies. They also examine the role of digital tokens in various sectors, from gaming to social media, and their impact on financial activities and personal relationships. Rachel explains the rise of cryptocurrencies, the metaverse, and how these new forms of money shape modern culture and societal norms.

*unSILOed Podcast is produced by University FM.*

Show Links:

Recommended Resources:

• Friedrich Hayek
• Karl Polanyi
• John Searle

Guest Profile:

• RachelODwyer.com
• Faculty Profile at National College of Art and Design Dublin
• Social Profile on Instagram
• Social Profile on X

Her Work:

• Tokens: The Future of Money in the Age of the Platform

Episode Quotes:

Where do we draw the regulatory line around money?

05:09: What I find quite interesting with tokens is that, increasingly, as we're seeing these sort of nonbank entities emerging and issuing money-like things, the token becomes a sort of regulatory sleight of hand. It becomes a way for platforms to issue money-like things, but say, well, hey, because this isn't real money, I'm not really a bank, so I'm doing everything that banks do, but because I don't have a financial license, I'm not processing payments. I'm doing everything that an employer does, but because I'm not handling money, I'm not officially an employer; therefore, I don't have any duty or responsibilities towards these people working or making a living on my platform. So there's all that sort of regulatory uncertainty sort of happening when we're dealing with tokens as opposed to money, but also, I think, as we saw in 2022 with the collapse of so many exchanges and stablecoins as well, there's this regulatory uncertainty around, what is legitimate financial activity and what is like a scam, and where do we draw the lines around those sorts of things?

Should tokens be seen as less than money?

17:25: When we start thinking about tokens as being less than money, there are all sorts of strings attached—all kinds of prescriptions, all sorts of controls attached to welfare payments, refugee payments—and all kinds of ways in which we can control prescribed behaviors when we issue tokens as opposed to "fungible," I suppose, cash or money.

Is scrip a double exploitation of workers?

23:29: I guess scrip is kind of a catch-22 because you're potentially being exploited when whoever's employing you is getting a profit—they're earning more than it costs to pay you and to sort of buy maybe the materials that it costs to produce whatever you're making. But scrip is double exploitation because they're paying you in their own special token that you can only redeem, basically, in the company store.

Programmable money ties payments to identity, unlike anonymous cash

38:56: A lot of what's happening with programmable money is tying the means of payment to your identity or to particular sorts of credentials. And I think with CBDCs, we're seeing more and more proposals for money that can be programmed, as they're saying, at issuance—that when that money is issued, there are potentially various terms and conditions hard-coded into it versus your dumb cash, which is just an anonymous, dumb bearer instrument that doesn't care and doesn't know who's holding it, who's bearing it, so long as it's bared up.