BONUS: Replies from David VanDrunen On State Illegitimacy

The Reformed Libertarians Podcast

In this bonus episode, we interview Dr. David VanDrunen. We consider his reply on several points to Pastor Taylor Drummond's critical article that we discuss in episode 17. The title of that article is "Fool's Gold?: A libertarian analysis of VanDrunen's account of state legitimacy" and it examines particular arguments in David VanDrunen's book Politics After Christendom.

VanDrunen expresses his appreciation for Drummond's article and our episode discussing it, raises questions concerning immoral complicity if the state is taken to be illegitimate, offers some clarification about his (up to this point) not having differentiated monopoly states from non-monopolistic civil governance in his writing, raises questions concerning what sort of consent is normative for the customary legal order's own legitimacy and its authorizing function, raises the question of when abuse or injustice might categorically disqualify one from rightfully possessing authoritative office and its relation to political resistance, and, at the end, responds to our proposal how a fuller, non-aggressionist view of proportionality in the lex talionis of the Noahic Covenant entails a conclusive argument in favor of the exclusively "protectionist" purpose of civil governance law.

https://reformedlibertarians.com/bonusC

Main Points of Discussion

00:00 Introduction

00:09 Episode description

02:15 Prefatory statements

05:37 The question of immoral complicity

16:30 Clarifying matters of complicity

21:13 The question of civil governance vs. monopoly state

27:55 Distinguishing normativity from de facto (non-)conformity to norms

31:00 The question of legitimizing consent

35:56 Distinguishing compliance under duress (by aggression)

40:45 The question of abuse/tyranny and de-legitimization

45:20 The question of a conclusive protectionist-only view

49:32 Remaining uncertainty about Scriptural “regulative principle” for civil governance

52:29 Closing remarks

Additional Resources

• About David VanDrunen
  https://www.wscal.edu/faculty-member/david-vandrunen/
  – author page at Mongerism
  https://www.monergism.com/authorsspeakers/david-vandrunen
  – bib at ResearchGate
  https://www.researchgate.net/scientific-contributions/David-VanDrunen-2115184386

• Episode 17: David VanDrunen’s View Of Civil Government, with Taylor Drummond
  https://reformedlibertarians.com/017

• “Fool’s Gold?: A libertarian analysis of VanDrunen’s account of state legitimacy,” by Taylor Drummond
  https://libertarianchristians.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/CLR-5-Drummond.pdf

• Politics After Christendom by David VanDrunen
  https://www.amazon.com/dp/0310108845/

• “The Protectionist Purpose of Law: A Moral Case from the Biblical Covenant with Noah,” by David VanDrunen
  https://www.pdcnet.org/jsce/content/jsce_2015_0035_0002_0101_0117

• Episode 2: What Does Romans 13 Say About Civil Government?
  https://reformedlibertarians.com/002

• Episode 8: The Boetie Option - the peaceful underthrow of the state
  https://reformedlibertarians.com/008

• Episode 14: Does Political Representation Make Sense?, with Gerard Casey
  https://reformedlibertarians.com/014

• Episode 15: Can Christian Civil Government Be Theocratic?
  https://reformedlibertarians.com/015

• Episode 18: Politics And The Church’s Mission: What Should The Church Teach About Civil Government?
  https://reformedlibertarians.com/018

• Audio of Answering 10 Objections to Libertarian Anarchism by Roderick Long
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsUjJ7TOhgk&list=PLwrDNUO5MDu8WYU5oB7l037lvAEjSoPBr&index=13

• Replies to this episode from Taylor Drummond
  https://thearchy.substack.com/p/my-thoughts-on-vandrunens-thoughts

The Reformed Libertarians Podcast is a project of the Libertarian Christian Institute: https://libertarianchristians.com and a member of the Christians for Liberty Network: https://christiansforliberty.net

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